Life Worth Living: A Guide to What Matters Most by Matthew Croasmun, Miroslav Volf, and Ryan McAnnally-Linz

 Are you ready to break free from autopilot and discover what truly makes life worthwhile? In this episode of Family Book Club, hosts Alex Kirby and Emily Blue sit down with Matthew Croasmun—co-author of Life Worth Living: A Guide to What Matters Most, and the creative force behind Yale’s Life Worth Living Program. This transformative book challenges us to reexamine our everyday habits and align our actions with our deepest values, offering practical frameworks for intentional living and inviting you to embark on a journey toward lasting fulfillment and meaningful connections. 

Episode Highlights
 
(1:55) Asking the Big Questions:
Matthew draws on his experience teaching curious undergrads. Sharing how students learn to shift from routine survival to intentional, value-driven living.

(13:15) Family and Listening:
Family is where we learn to truly listen to the people we love, and that practice helps us embrace different viewpoints with genuine compassion. 

(46:30) Vision in Action:
When you share your vision with your spouse or family—whether it's mapping out your perfect day or planning an ideal event—it works wonders for aligning expectations and creating a shared roadmap for success. 

(51:44) A Call to Live Well 
Matthew shares a standout affirmation: "Your life is worth living well. Your life is too valuable to be guided by anything less than what matters most." 

This is a call to action—a gentle wake-up call urging us to pause, reflect, and ensure that every choice we make aligns with our deepest values.

Thank you for listening! 

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Transcript

welcome to Family Book Club
a podcast that brings families together
through the love of reading
I'm your host  Alex Kirby
joined as always by our co-host
the librarian of Laughter Emily Blue
and our special guest today
Matthew Croasmun
co-author of Life Worth Living
a guide to what matters the most
Matthew is a professor
and director of the Life Worth Living Program
at the Yale Center for faith and Culture
Matthew welcome to Family Book Club
thanks so much for having me
I think we should start
where most of our families are probably wondering
which is how how do we get our kids into Yale
why we brought you here yeah
I mean if
if anyone knows you know
let me know yeah
so you just to start off
life worth living is one of the most popular classes
yeah and when we approach you about coming on
you said that you
love the idea of families connecting around this book
so we would could we just start with you
telling us a little bit about
what it's like to teach
one of the most popular classes at Yale
what the class is about
and why you think this is cool for families
well I mean
part of what it's like to teach a
in demand class at Yale is you
is just a lot of time spent on registration
at the beginning of the term
but after you get through that and the emails
you can imagine is being with a course like this
you get the emails like you know
like I
I just don't know if my life will be worth living
if I'm not in life worth living okay
and then and you try to make sure that
that's not a serious concern
and then and then you
and then you move on right
and say like your life is very much worth living
  that is the foundation of this course
and everything I do in my life
  anyway
  but the course
it's been extraordinary opportunity
just to spend time with undergraduates
who have really pivotal moments in their lives
asking the big questions of life
and are basically our pitch to them is look
if the Russian novel or organic chemistry
or macroeconomics
is worth the best of your intellectual energy
then surely the trajectory
and direction of your entire life is worth
at least a little bit of that energy
and then we're off to the races and we've got
you know 13 weeks
just spending time reading amazing texts from cultural
and philosophical and religious traditions
that have been wrestling with these questions
for for literally for millennia
and really you know
wrestling with the question like
all right what does it have to do with
with my life
and it's really exciting to take that up with
you know mostly 18
the you know
22 year olds but it's also just
you just
know that these questions are never gonna leave you
you're never gonna be done with them  
first of all students have been wrestling with them
before they got to college
gonna be wrestling with them
for the rest of their lives fact
we say the goal of the course is not the
we have no illusions that we're gonna help had that
since we'll have answered these questions
finally by the end of the course
we're trying to equip them for
of the lifelong process
of discerning the shape of the good life
and we've caught glimpses here and there of
of seeing just that happen
where then these conversations go multi generational
one of my favorite moments in teaching
the class was getting a paper from a student where  
she had written
a reflection on something that her grandmother
had said at the Passover
cedar table she said you know
when I see you and your cousins sit at the seat
at the table arguing with each other
I know my job is a grandmother but he's done right
and student wrote this extraordinary papers
yeah I just I just love that
it's something about those two things
being seated at the table
still coming to the table in this case right
the the table has to do with you know
faith and sort of religious observance
and the participation in the
in the people of god over
over millennia
and also arguing being engaged with that tradition
still taking it up  
  wrestling with it
not just receiving it possibly
but then the most beautiful part of it was
after having written this extraordinary paper
I think even in the process of writing that paper uh
the student sent this to her grandmother
grandmother sent it to the mother
and then the student shared this
like three generation email chain with me
that was these three generations of women
wrestling with these big
with these big questions and what
what the different answers and responses of
look like and different seasons of their lives
  what it
what it is that they value together as a family
yeah anyway
so so yeah
my my dream for all of this
even though I teach undergraduates dream really is that
uh we'd have multi
multi generational conversations about these questions
that's really where they belong
when you think about the class
and where your students are at
what is
surprised you the most about teaching this course
one is  
I'm always just surprised by their   openness
  to
to one another  
they are maybe I shouldn't be surprised me
I you know I
it was
I'm surprised by what wonderful people my students are
no I'm not  
increasing I'm no longer surprised
but honestly I think maybe it's just
we should be encouraged about the future
the extent to which the students are
just ready to learn from one another
really curious to learn about  
experiences of life that are very much unlike their own
it almost can go a little too far
in the sense that they're they're  
they're hesitant to really disagree with one another  
which I I helped them with haha
  he'll help nudge them in day well
I don't know you know
you said this and you said this other thing
sure I don't know
sounds like there's something to talk about there
but I I love their openness
that's that's just always really encouraging to me
I mean I
one thing I've been surprised about recently has been
  a change that we started to see maybe in the last uh
10 years uh
or over the 10 years span
so maybe just in the last couple years
yell students 10 years ago were like
change the world like impact was like the big word
you know how can I make an impact
change the world forever who knows
for good for ill
who knows but the world will have them well
you know well
the world will bear my Mark
by the time this is all done
and it was sort of this like heroic vision of life
and sometimes we were actually sort of trying to
both like sometimes like
not like deflate that heroism
but a little bit try to like modulate that a bit
and it was also like they came in with a sense of
sense of certainty that actually
we felt like sometimes we'd need this sort of like
really push pretty hard to
just to get them open to change
and open to sort of thinking differently
in the last couple years and I really
I think this has to do with Covid
 
their dreams have a lot more to do with just stability
  so I wanna have a job that's gonna like
you know
you know I mean
they would say keep a roof over my head
I mean they're
they're not just looking to have a roof over their head
there they
but they have a sense that hey
I got into Yale
it should be possible for me to have a pretty
comfortable life and
and that's and that's not for nothing
because they've really seen
the worlds were turned upside down
seem to be nobody really you know
think you know
these are students who are in high school
in the pandemic and they're just looking like well
it looked like the people in charge
didn't really know what was going on
nobody really knew what the right thing was to do
everybody's just arguing with each other and
you know and boy
have like a reliable paycheck and that
that seems you know
something not not to take for granted
and I think 10 years ago
students or took that for granted
or maybe even willing to wager that
wager on themselves
that they could forgo that for a little
while to try to do something bigger
to something a little riskier
take that artistic path at entrepreneurial path
whatever it would be
and now they're a little bit more like man
it'd be great to get a paycheck
  and I don't wanna
I don't mean to be disparaging about that right
I think like I said
I think that comes from like an honest place
but then the other thing
and then that means is that if I come in
hard charging on like hey
like this class will wreck
you know mean the first chapter of the book right
this book could wreck your life right
  there are fewer
I see students with fewer like
you know sort of like
I don't know solid plans that like need to be wrecked
and more students
some people just don't make it past the yeah
well I mean
I just like like
they're more in a place of like man
they've seen wreckage yeah
they've seen wreckage and  
I wanna come alongside and help them
you know build something up
I mean my rule always was
you know I always tell teachers in training man
you know you break it
you bought it you know
if you if you tear
if you've helped a student tear down something
especially something about like
the meaning and purpose and direction of her life
you know there are a lot of folks
universities who love to you know
burst bubbles
that that's that's
sometimes there are bubbles that need to be burst
but I think
you got to take responsibility to help students
like build something up that's gonna replace that
and I just think like largely
like the bubbles are already burst
and in a new kind of way our
our work really is already we're on step two
how do we help students build something solid
they can build a life
have you found more meaning personally
in the last few years of building up versus bursting
or how do you think
do you enjoy yeah
well I mean
I've always been a
that's a reflection like pre pandemic
so during the pandemic you were like
maybe I shouldn't like everyone just like going rethink
oh yeah like too
too much I got too much yeah
well I will say too
I mean the other
another feature of the pandemic is I think like
actually and in this is surely somewhat selection bias
the students that come our way and wanna take a course
like Life worth Living they are
they are so much more emotionally healthy
than students actually
before the pandemic in certain ways right
like because they actually
many of our students took that time personally
to do some personal work and they're better for it
  now again
that's not to say that there weren't tra as
in the middle of the pandemic
and losses and those have
you know we and we do definitely see the the cost there
but a lot of our students
you know took those years and sometimes there
you know
I think our average age of our undergraduate is
is gone up by about a year
cause like the gap year was becoming more common
and then like the pandemic
almost everybody you know
say things down why would I wanna j p into college
if I'm not even gonna be on campus
you know these kinds of questions
so yeah anyways
so
I think there's a little bit more individual maturity
what they are the skill set that that isn't
is developed is the interpersonal
is the right how do we build something together
how do we have a hard conversation
how do we you know again
they're eager to do that they're ready and and willing
but just those muscles you know
lost a year
two or three development of of the things you said
like I always joke that you know
you talk a lot about the Bible in this in this book
like I was trained as a Bible scholar Alex yeah
you know I love it
I love it
it's just like I feel like 2 thousand years ago
people were walking around saying
the next generation was gonna
you know doom us
and so it's always cool to hear people
talk about the promise of young people
because I really believe in that
and I think we see a lot more like
blaming the boomers blaming Gen
Alpha and disease and in actuality
we all have
really great perspectives to bring to the table
that are very different if we listen to each other
and what you said about the
the family arguing
like the email and going back and forth
I think that's what we want from a podcast like this
is remove the certainty and anger
and righteousness in arguing
and have a dialogue yes
that is like normal and healthy
and just like
you have a different view and I have a different view
and it's not going to end our relationship
right if we have a different view
I think that's really important
for families to be able to
in obviously politics
and the polarization of that has made it much harder
yeah I love that discourse
I want to be able to have that discourse with
I think we all do with our intents
yeah the art
the art of listed the art of listening is a lost
right  
and what did you say nope
haha exactly
 
Emily warned me about the joke
 
the uh
social media trains us to basically listen in order to
like like
find the moment in the arg ent
when we can come in and say like
the killer thing will get retweeted or whatever right
sure you know
we listen in order to look for the opportunity
for the debt you know
to level the devastating critique or give the like
extraordinary no insight that'll be clipped later
the irony is is
is present for me as we're on a podcast
I think there might be some things clipped here
hopefully some one of us says some brilliant
amazing thing  
but if we're spending our whole time in the
even in this conversation right
like looking for the opportunity to say that thing
and actually listen right
like we've really missed an opportunity
and I think families  
it's so funny
maybe it's become a sort of cliche at this point that
like every holiday comes up
oh well
you know condolences
everybody's you know
going to that family table and
you know
it's gonna be uncle so and so that's gonna say some
you know ridiculous thing that's gonna
you know
that's gonna make you hold your head in your hands
and it's just almost like
sort of
conceded that the family is gonna be this space
but it's interesting because like
what's being conceded there right
it's conceded that the family is gonna be
a space where you'll actually hear
different viewpoints right
otherwise
curated our lives into sort of like echo bubbles
right
family like you didn't choose
you can't choose those people so
so actually
what we're realizing is only around the holidays
only around family gatherings of certain sorts
do we actually encounter political
ideological sort of you know
folks who encounter different kinds of social worlds
that we do
and then the Ass ption is
the best you can do is sort of like
bear it you know like  
you hopefully hopefully you survive right
  and if survival is the goal
I mean that's a pretty low bar right
  so yeah
so uh
hopefully right
to flip it on its head family
can actually become the environment where we practice
what it is to be fundamentally
committed to one another
and because of those fundamental commitments
then we can actually listen
genuinely push through and into
and through disagreement
where we honor one another too much to just agree
to disagree but we also honor one another too much to
to just interact
where we're just trying to score points
it actually like in part
we lack spaces I mean
listen to like Robert Putnam's work right
we lack sort of this broader social capital
which is to say we lack other spaces
in which we are always already
committed to one another
such that then when I find out you
hold of you or you take some sort of
you know
social action or whatever it is that I find upsetting
if we're already committed to one another
I have to somehow figure out how to be with you
and walk with you through that
family is one of those
maybe few and final places that we have
like that and that should be the training ground
we're learning to build
these kinds of muscles of honorable and honoring
mutually honoring
kind of conversation across lines of difference
the closer you move to treating family like survival
whether it's you know
a dinner or a gathering
the closer you move to disconnection
yeah so
you have so many families disconnected
whether it's you know
relatives or even you know
whatever it may be and it's because
I truly think
it's because people are just trying to survive
and social media and that
reels of algorithms are showing them how to survive
that family gathering or how to shut something down
and we move away from just healthy debate
healthy conversation yeah
appreciation of the differences
and thoughts and wisdom and affirmation
maybe of some deeper shared commitments that we
that we hold together right
that that allow us to make room and sort of
contextualize our disagreements even
even when
in where our disagreements really are significant
  but even like
I feel like the disagreements just
you know focusing on those with any family
it's like all right
we have this political disagreement or this
there's this issue we don't see eye to eye on
I just don't talk about it
there's so many things that are
that you have in common that are healthier and better
it just doesn't have to be
the one thing that defines your relationship
that you don't see eye to eye on
abortion like right
you spent 20 years together
you can talk about a million different things
and experiences and what we Learned
from when we were little and what was it
what do you think parenting was like
it was different when we were growing up then
there's just like
a million thoughtful conversations that are not
related to the specific trope
political topics
but I do wanna j p into here our opening segment
which is called The Welcome Mat
so we're walking into the family house mat
I'm sure you know this
and we want to get the big idea from the book
that we can fit on a welcome mat
that would typically be in front of the front door
so it's got to be short
but what do you think is the big idea from this book
that you can fit on a welcome mat
oh shoot
I mean this
this is such is it
this is an unfair question that I ask an author
I feel like like
I mean I
I I wrote a whole book
cause I thought it wouldn't fit on a welcome mat
  but  
also I I didn't know if
the welcome mat was with one or two teas
but I cause I feel welcome already
but here's your welcome mat
okay with one tea
that's what our says alright
alright good
  uh
but anyway uh
the if I had to
had to boil it down I mean it's
it's so funny cause this book is about questions
but if I
I wanted to give you something that's a statement
so maybe like the statement would be
every h an life is worth living
like that is that's just fundamental
but then the question start then the but for me
then the what's the big point of the book is then
then what questions flow from that idea right
so if every h an life is worth living
what's the
what is the texture and the shape of that worthiness
how can we live lives that lean into
rather than away from that worthiness
that's at the core of who and what we are
that's the deep
that's the deepest welcome out we've ever had
I can see it scrolls all the way to the driveway yeah
I can see maybe your sister
like walking out for the holidays
and they see the welcome back
she's like
she gonna be doing this the whole day
and we're gonna have to easily do deep reflection
every holiday Matt yeah
that's beautiful though
I really like it and who is this guy yeah
mine is gather with purpose
hmm
what does that mean
yeah I
I think this is one of those books that
if you go in with the right intentions
and trying to find the areas to focus
develop and grow there's so much meaning
and it's one that you can kind of keep coming back to
like you said at the beginning Matthew
that the goal is not to finish the book
and put it on the shelf and
you know
have all the answers and the rest of your life is
you know
worth living and perfect and happy and blissful
so just be purposeful
that's really good I mean
I'm gonna my our welcome matches says vision
that's like what we do as a company at Total Family
when I read this I'm looking for one chart here
when I read this book
it which was recommended to me by Ella Chase
who runs company called Wealth Works
we had like one conversation and she was like
I don't know you that well
but I think you should read this book
and and so I read it and loved it
and just before we go into these other segments
I was wondering that could you give us like a
very high level view on the layers that you talk about
in the book cause I think it's really important
for people to understand what
the book is challenging us to do
the the layers as I have them labeled were autopilot
effectiveness self awareness and self transcendence
but is there like a way to
describe that in a distinct way
for people who haven't read the book yet
yeah it's so simple enough
the autopilot is just where we live most of our lives
we don't live all that intentionally
and that's probably as it should be
we have habits some are good some are bad
actually the goal of this reflection
in many ways is just a tune in
our habits and how do you do that tuning
well as we identify
at least three different kinds of reflection
they're importantly different and each is important
but they're they're importantly different
so first is effectiveness
which is asking how two questions  
how do I how do I get what I'm after
self awareness questions are wait
hold on what am I after like what do I actually want
  what  
and and those are we
I say that self awareness
because it's about our own desires
and our own orientation passions in life
as students often show up to college
thinking that they're gonna figure out
but then there's what we call the self transcendence
questions
and these are the questions that go beyond what
whatever I happen to want and ask like
what is actually worth wanting
yeah whatever I'm aiming at
what would be what would be worth aiming at
whatever I'm chasing after
what would actually be worth chasing after
and those questions we think are pretty unfamiliar for
for many of us in the sort of modern west
we tend to be much more comfortable asking how to
effectiveness questions you know
if I should have more to speak
and I don't give them a title
the title that will be assigned to me is
how to live a good life
and I generally show up and say like man
like answer is I don't know  
well yeah like I keep trying and failing  
but but and
and and I think
you know uh
but we're comfortable there we're
we're good at asking if I do this question or we ask
maybe at most we get down to self awareness questions
right hold on
we shouldn't just ask out two questions
let's let's ask what four questions
but we don't really ask what four questions
we ask what do I want question
ask questions of taste or desire
or whatever it might be yeah
those are those only get us so deep frankly
they keep us
at the center of our own perspective on the world
and there's sort of no both
no escaping our own bubbles
I think it's part of why we have a hard time
having conversation and not getting difference
it's kind of like I like macaroni and cheese
I don't like macaroni and cheese okay
now if it's just a difference of taste
right then like we can go around the circle and
and and give our share
but then we're done right
we're doing sort of moral parallel play  
but if there's a fact of the matter
that makes things more harder and better right  
we're no longer alone  
yeah but we really have to contend with one another
wrestle with one another a bit over
over over what might be
what might be the truth no matter what so uh
I you know
if I if I can revise my welcome
that answer right
if I was gonna put one one one word on the mat right
it would be worth
what is worthy right and
and I that
that's really the question we get at
in self transcendence we get outside ourselves
and then ideally
we can come back to those other questions
on the way back up
I have some intuitions now about what's actually worthy
then I can try to tune my desires around those things
and if I start to desire those things
and I can adopt effective strategies
and help me get those and like set the end of the day
maybe we can have some retuned habits and and
and ultimately like an integrated way of life right
that's actually oriented around what matters most
we say that the
what is worth wanting question is above our big grade
that's what we say like like when we talk about this
but you in the book you say
one of the great myths of
the 21st century is this idea that
effectiveness is the deepest question that we can ask
and I think we see that in self help culture
where there's people that
want to move out of autopilot improve and
and then that might mean waking up earlier
you know using all these different tips and tricks to
become more effective but I think what the book
what I loved about the third level
and how you talk about it is like
you can end up optimizing for the wrong thing
yeah right
if you're not looking at it holistically
you can end up optimizing for a career that
you know occupies 95% of your life
gives you great monetary rewards
but you don't feel like you're contributing
you lose relationships
and you might not realize it until it's too late yeah
and so the what is worth wanting
question is like a really cool one to us
and it's where we spend most of our time
and I think a lot of people
the stuff that they want is worth wanting
you know like
I don't feel like we're qualified to answer
I when you give people in deep reflection
very
not very often when they saying like
we want yachts and
and huge islands and all this kind of stuff
like it very much is you know
leaving a good impact on the world
having strong relationships with our kids
you know doing our best while we're here
you know we talk about purpose statements all the time
but the thing about those layers that is also cool is
the book tells you to move back and forth through the
yeah so it's not saying like
you know go into reflective
you know just be reflected forever
it's saying you have to go
kind of continuously move through these layers
throughout your life
cause I do think the answers to these questions
and change over time is that
try to say that's absolutely right and  
you know I mean
the metaphor we use for the layers is of a dive right
and and  
everything
other than the autopilot is below the waterline
  and so if you try to just go like
never ending reflection the metaphor
as the metaphor itself suggests
that gets suffocating right
like very quickly and yeah
no absolutely
we have to be
we have to be sort of returning up to the service
and we need to take sometimes
it is appropriate to take a dive
that's a little less deep right
sometimes all we do need is just like
a little dive down to the level of effectiveness
just do a little strategic tuning
we're relatively confident that we've
we've done some deeper work down at level
self transcendence and self awareness
and so you know
in the morning when I wake up
I don't always have to like wrestle brand new
newly again with like the big questions of life
at some point I do right
and in fact the
the fact is that even when we
haven't wrestled with these questions directly
we're always already living answers to these questions
even if we write write them down on a test right
  and as you say
not all those answers are bad right
sometimes we like a lot of
a lot of the work that we invite students to do
is to go make explicit
what was already implicit in the country
that they were living right
and I think they're now
there are places to go hunting for
better and worse intuitions right
so like when David Brooks invites us to consider that
you know his
the distinction between eulogy and res e virtues right
yeah if at
if at your memorial surface
someone stood up and read your
your your res e
that would be that yeah
something has gone wrong in your life right right
we know our ways I feel like we live like that yeah
right now
this point is noted
as if the most important thing is gonna be
you know uh
your you know
the your
your res e or your accomplishments
I heard someone say recently
you know on your deathbed on people's deathbed
nobody says like oh
would you go bring you know
go bring me my you know
my CV so I can read it one more
one last time bring me that award or like
go like show me my my
my highest paycheck  
so that I could look at it one last time
they say like gather the people that I care about right
so so all this is like
I think like we said like
you don't put executive vice president or Tombstone
right well
I will anyway they're actually the
you'll has a there's a cemetery on campus
and I actually often love to have office hours
conversations walking around the cemetery
feels like an appropriate because like honestly
because it helps put us in
in a context in which
I think our intuitions are actually better
right about
about some of these questions
  but you do
you do walk by every once in a while  
there are some because it's
it's sort of like near the university
you do get like
sometimes like people's like highest titles  
like on the on the Tombstone and then you like
oh man maybe like it feels like that feels like some
I mean I don't want to make judgments right
but it's like hmm
this say something about us like institutionally
actually we put our titles on our tombstones like
you know
so you walking through this answer with your students
I just got like dead poets 3 Rose Buds
while you may vibes like this man
I love it here lies Noah Webster
like what are you gonna do with your life
you know it's like I said
David Brooks
and others have pointed out many times before me
but it is true
that I think when we consider our mortality
often we get towards some of our better intuitions
than when we're late for work in the morning
or when we're
trying to decide whether to stay in the office
two more hours at the end of the day
or whatever it might be right
like our intuitions are less good
well let's head into the family room
this is usually where I step on Legos
and almost fall into the fireplace
this is usually my family room  
and this is where we talk about
why it's relevant for families
and I think we've touched on this a bit
but is there anything else that we want to say on like
why we feel like this book is particularly relevant
for families oh yeah
I mean I already shared you shared with you my
my my
my great hope here actually
is that we can have intergenerational conversations
families are where we often are our intuitions
on our best intuitions wow
best and worst sometimes right
is where our intuitions are foreign right
sometimes for good sometimes for less good right
but inevitably you know
when we teach the course at Yale
we invite students to reflect their first paper
actually before they get to writing
about their own vision of a good life
they write a paper about Yale's vision of a good life
  it's all like until you've
you know gotten a handle on
the Bill of goods that you're being sold
like you're just gonna get hoodwinked
when it comes down to writing
what is your own account
it was cause it's not your own account  
none of us are ever blank slates on these things
we've always already been formed in
the reason we have our students write about Yale
because that's the context that they share
but even more fundamental of course
each of us is is our family
and so we need to take if nothing else
we need to take account of
what are the norms
that we've sort of established in this family
many of those are gonna be rich and worth excavating
and really going going deep on
we might we may also find a handful that are like
you know that's a yeah
that's a dysfunction that we can
that we can all name  
you know in my family
being right is really really important right
when we get together for family dinner
and actually it's an amazing gift in my
in my life
I have dinner once a week still with the like
nuclear family that I grew up in
my parents
my sister and our families like get together once
once a week just happens
we all live here in Connecticut
not where we grew up but it's just where we all are now
but anyway but when we get around that table boy
we waste a lot of time are like
you know
d b the d best things
you know about like
you know uh
who who's right about what year
you know you know
mom and dad bought the Prius
I mean who
like who can't
you know but anyway
  it's a good setting for a family book club yeah
exactly well
sometimes my my sister will just sort of point out like
well you know
after that we you know
do five minutes on something that shouldn't have
mattered right
she's like well
at least now we know who is right  
not not important what was right
we need to know who was right
  anyway
so so that's a norm in my family
that
at least as we've spent some time thinking about it
like yeah
that probably you know
we're gonna like put together our family crest
that's not something we'd wanna
it's not a value we wanna put in there
but we gotta be honest about the family system
uh that is something that that really seems to matter
and so I think that sort of clear eyed  
that clear eyed reflection on like
what are the values you know
my my father's value of integrity right
my my parents values personal integrity
that's that's what I really that I
I I think is deep in our family and I'd wanna have
you know
take deeper and make sure it gets continued on right
  it being really important to know who was right
left important love to decenter that well
question for you cause when I think about
how is this relevant for families
you look across you know
the families are out there
and the conflict that sometimes arises in these debate
situations that then create the
why never wanna go back to that whatever
and then it's almost like this book triggers
you know a lesson in how to end those debates
hmm like you can
you can have healthy
debates and you have healthy dialogue
and you should
but then how do you if you have different opinions
how do you put a bow on that and move to the next thing
yeah without it turning into a reflection of
I don't like so and so or yeah
person's crazy or you know what I mean
so yeah yeah
what is one thing that I think
sparked for me in this book is just
how do we help families yeah
have great conversation
better conversation than they've ever had before
meaningful conversation
but in moments of debate or conflict
how do you reconnect
I think that's a great question
and I hope one of the
one of the norms for our classrooms is that
is a sort of like appreciative inquiry
we call it you know
we want to read charitably right
but so the this
our first question is always in our class is not
what might be wrong with this idea yeah
first question is like why would this make sense
why does this make sense to any yeah
any n ber of people right
if this if this claim were true
how would your life have to change right
and and
and and we sort of
we sort of say like at our class
at its best is sort of serially evangelistic
it's sort of like tradition after tradition
we're sort of like
like in trying to encounter like
the best case for each really different right
importantly different kind of view of the world right
but we're not gonna like roll up
you know to like
you know what it
what was Gandhi's d b understanding of the world
right now
we're gonna start with like wow
like Gandhi
Gandhi may have some different theological commitments
that I do but boy
there's pres ably something really of value here right
and I and
and and I may encounter Gandhi
and Nietzsche in the same semester
and boy those two are gonna disagree
about a whole n ber of things
even Nietzsche even Nietzsche
who's
probably the one I have the most disagreement with
right but when we encounter niche in the book
we at times we're trying to like give his view
right some time
right to really sit with it and say like
okay well
like what would what's valuable here right  
and I think like
if we can then learn to do that with one another right
where the first kind of thought is alright
I disagree with you
but what reasons are you offering to me
or what reasons can I imagine
for why you might hold your view
that I would never find find valuable
all right sure
  so there's a disagree
you know it's interesting actually the
the the
the disagreement on abortion
which Alex you mentioned right
like that's pretty honestly
that's pretty like far down the road right
like abortion doesn't come up in the book  
and it tends
not to frankly come up in our conversations right
but it might come up around a family conversation
but that that debate frankly
like
if there's one good thing has come from that debate
is both positions I think
are described in terms that those who hold them
would want would want a value right
pro life yep
someone holds a pro life positions like yeah
life is really important to me
now doesn't mean
life is unimportant to someone
who holds a position of choice
and it doesn't mean that choice is unimportant to the
person who
who care who holds a pro life decision or position
but I love the book that at least like it could we
so we could begin an appreciative inquiry
right by saying oh
that's interesting  
you hold it in position to me
but but you describe as being pro life
life is a value that really matters me
or you hold a position is different to me
but you describe it as pro choice well
you know
choice is actually a really important value to me
and I can see where that you're so can we
can we begin by sort of
I'm doing that appreciative incree
that sort of charitable listening
and even imagine like
how would my life be enriched in certain ways
if I took on some of your
some of your views and I know that can be really
really hard to do when you're at the table and you know
again the stereotypical moment
uncle so and so just said the incredibly racist thing
right now I'm gonna be like
well let me consider carefully
whether racism would
enrich my life in some sort of way right
that's yeah
but I think also like read and listen charitably
is a great take away for this section
because yeah there's you know your sibling can say oh
I you look nice today and you can just be like oh
did I not look nice last time
hey Raven yeah
it's like anything can be taken in a different life
no matter what and if we're not gonna be like
understanding and forgiving of our
own immediate families and people closest to us
and try to read and listen to them terribly
like who are we gonna do that for
probably no one yeah
so I think that's a really cool way to just tell people
like ass e that
they probably ass e the best being something nice here
yeah ass e bad deeply related people
we like respond to disagreement
first of all with curiosity
yeah
so hard but like honestly we try to cultivate right
how do you respond with curiosity
because and often you can be the place to go hunting
the place to direct your curiosity is
help me understand how you came
how you came to that position  
is there is there you know is there a story
is there a moment in your life where that really were
this position really became important to you
  what sort of behind it get
and often cause often the answer is a story
yeah right
I mean I
I often I always tell my students
most advice is thinly veiled autobiography right
yeah I
I tell you you ought to go do so
such and such usually what I mean is
I did that and I think it went well
or I didn't do that and I really regretted it right
well whatever it is
right behind someone says usually people my own story
it just means they think it yeah
a lot of people weren't sure about the book
it's like you just weren't sure about them
yeah but if
but if but if
I think behind a lot of these positions are stories
right and so we can be curious about those stories
because a story actually it's funny
my daughter was just working on homework last night
she asked me she's like
what is dad like
what is the thesis of a story
and I'm like
honestly
thesis is a category that does not apply to a story
and she's like
we'll go take that up with my English teacher
I don't know
but we are like
stories can have morals
we can have takeaways from stories right
but a story like what love in a wonderful way
sort of like
doesn't on the face of it sort of have a thesis
it's just a story right and we can
I mean listen to like the
you know
talk about things that give us hope like story core
right this
this is practice
right is connected the Library Congress for
for decades now people just go inside a booth
and he just tells someone to care about
and actually they've
Story Corps recently started a new project
where they're taking  
red and blue Americans as it were
and put them in the story Core booth
with some guardrails I hope that go well  
but most
but they're just telling each other stories and well
and and now and then they come
come out and all of a sudden
you got two people from completely different
completely different worlds who
who just say like well
I don't know like I've never met a trans person before
but here's a trans person who's like
stories really mean you know
meaningful or sure I'd never I'd never met met uh
I never had a serious conversation with a Tr p voter
but now I just had a conversation with a Tr p voter
and then they're a whole h an being to me right and
and that's just like you know anyway
so all this like I think when we can get to story
and so I love asking my my uncle
and I took a long walk in the woods a
few months ago with my uncle
who was in Alabama
just asking all the stories I can about like
early on in in
in his life
and in some conflicts that he had with my grandparents
right like oh
that's interesting
that's a juicy stuff I tell me you know
like how did that right but but it's all getting like
where do our I where
where I know what it is to be us as a family
a little bit actually
like not all that well
but I certainly know it's the water that I swim
that we swim in how did it get to be this way
why is it this temperature
why is it yeah why is it more saltier less saltier
like as I was gonna say
like where did all this poop come from anyway
this is like kids you get it you get it right
you know it's like
and I think like
just story is just such an easier place to start
and it can just add so many layers of meaning like oh
like if you're talking to your aunt that way
you're just like tell me about
tell me when my dad got in trouble
when you guys were little
tell me about you know
like you just get to a better yeah ladies and yeah
you start uncovering things and and and so I
that's it's really really cool
I speaking of kids Emily  
I wanna go to the kitchen table real quick
this is usually where where my kids refuse to eat  
so we don't do a ton of eating in our kitchen table
right now
but we do want a question that families can reflect on
Matthew do you have a question that you think families
you know
maybe it is the story where you go on the story there
too but is there
is there a question you think is
for families reflecting on
the book is full of questions
there's a lot of work at the end of each chapter
there's there's reflecting questions
which are cool so
so at some level I
of my you know
uh all of them no uh
I think I think
I think they're all worth thinking up
  I love this question on what should we hope for
I think hope is just really
as he said Alex
it's it's
it's forward orienting we need it
we don't often get a lot of it
but what are the sort of things that we do hope for
but even like what should we hope for right
like what a lot a lot of young kids these days
like really wanna be famous
is that even worth hoping for
I I
I kind of fear that right
like being
doesn't seem to do wonderful things in people's lives
like I don't know
yeah but we can talk about our hopes
what what should we hope for
what should we hope for
maybe a conversation that would
that would be for later in a family's life we got
you know high school and above
kids sitting around on the table would be maybe more
the like
I love this question of discipline
is one that's really been working in my life right now
how can we fall in
love with what we take to be most worthy
of our shared h anity right like
so it's like it's like
like without let's not let's do let's not do the
the New Year's resolution thing
and immediately j p to like
I'm gonna make a commitment to like
radically alter my behavior in the following 75 ways  
yeah but first
like all the ancient traditions say that is folly
first before you get the strategy
you got to go to discipline
which is with disciplines are practices we take up
not to change our behavior first homework
but to change ourselves ready to do our
do some work on the inside right
so disciplines of things like silence fasting
prayer and long walks in the woods and Sabbath
oh man that's you know  
that they may come up later again
but like
you know
maybe I should like not work for 24 hours a week
there are some disciplines we can take up
that actually form us right
and so I that's one that that's sort of that in my
with the grown up at the at the
at the grown up table I love that conversation
it's a good one
it's a good one the question that I had is
you know
is happiness the goal or is it the byproduct of
you know a meaningful life
and so either cause there's so many books I
I'm guilty of reading I
I I countless n ber of happiness books right
but then your book was the first
that really caused me to pause and go well
is that worth wanting I like wrote it down
underlined it and highlighted it
and so if you're trying to get to happiness is
should you be going towards a worthwhile life
that's really good I love that Emily
that's great  
mine was around you know
you say in the book vision requires some specificity
and we're obviously believers
and that we try to help people like
get to something that they can touch
but I feel like
just getting more specific with each other around
you know the
the vision question is we define it as values
purpose roles
and we're talking about big picture almost always
but there is very practical uses of vision
so I'll give you if you and your spouse are going to
like a holiday party
or a party where you don't know people
or you're going to an all day family reunion
the great question is
what is your vision for how you see this day go
and you'll find that like you'll get a response like
well it would be great if you wouldn't
just go talk to your uncle for
the entire day and leave me hanging for 6 hours
or it
would be really good if we could get out of here early
cause I'm trying to do something in the morning
or you know what I'm like in such a good mood
I might have like a couple of drinks tonight
and I'm just like you know
very late back and dah dah dah dah dah
so I think that the
the specificity of vision for people is like
a really great you know
Thanksgiving whatever like
what's your vision for how this dinner
is gonna play out it's a very helpful way
it forces people to
articulate the picture that they have in their mind
about this this event planning on
because like my version of Thanksgiving is
often different than my wives
if we both understand like
what a good
Thanksgiving is gonna look like for each other
then it
we usually get to a better place than if it's like
you know
I want kind of wanna be outside doing the Turkey
she wants this like beautiful aesthetic like
like thing
and if I don't support that and she doesn't support me
we're gonna end up like
so that's my question okay
part of the
I really struggled with this part of the home
which is the MVP of the book
there's a lot of names and references and ideas
so would you say Matthews the MVP
not an easy question you could say your co authors too
I feel like I pick I pick the authors frequently
so I'm taking them off the table for me
but who would you say is MVP
yeah so I got
I got a sentimental answer and then uh
maybe when it's a little bit more
what you're looking for I think for me
that the sentimental answer is
the MVP of the book is our students
because I think we
this book doesn't exist other than apart from
and I mean students in the broadest sense
like we've had these conversations in
you know at Yale
we've had these conversations in community groups
we've had these conversations in a federal prison
we've had these conversations in middle schools
we've had you know
so yeah students in the broader stories about like
impactful moments yeah
brought to the program
so I think like what they've taught us is just huge  
and some of those show up in those anecdotes
and a lot of them a lot of them don't and you know
I love my sentimental answer
so I'm gonna just stick with that one yeah
no that answer is perfect yeah I don't wanna know
I was always the you know
the class pet
and so I'm gonna go with the authors on this one
but no truly I think that I mentioned it earlier
I read just every happiness book out there
because I find it fascinating
and you guys were the first authors to
really grapple with the question
is it worth watching I found that so helpful
I was I was teetering at Oscar Wilde
because he's referenced so much about the book
and it's like he's kind of like a genius
but clearly doesn't have it fully together
but clearly is reflective on his own fault
and so like you know
I I
I liked him but but the
the Julia Wise the
the person from the center of effective altruism
and I know that movement is like
some people really like it
some people sort of think it's like over
kind of cooked in different ways
and I had a rough need last year to yeah
yeah it did
but but she and her
her husband are donating 30 to 50% of their income
every single year and you say in the book
the average person donates two to five yeah
so whatever you wanna say about yep
the movement it is not specific to yeah
Julia Wise and her husband yeah
who are that
that is just like an unbelievable n ber to me
and it made me just feel like obviously we can do more
well
I don't think having spent time with Julia and Jeff
they're they're the real deal man  
they're like super thoughtful and   yeah
they they
they walk the walk crazy 30 to 50% of your income
I mean I've never heard of anyone doing
you know very
very cool all right
it's chilly it's time for the Quotation Quilt
where we talk about our favorite quote from the book
I know this is usually pretty hard for authors
I would think cause you're already together
but do you have a quote that you like often you know
yeah yeah
this is the
this is the one that we intend to come back to
and it's towards the end of the book
and it's a part that I can say I did not draft
so I'm not I'm not like you know
this is definitely this is something that I
co author Ryan Mcanally wins originally drafted
he says
this is where I started it's not a bad place to end
your life is worth living
it is valuable in fact
it's beyond valuable it's invaluable
precisely because it is so truly worth living
your life is worth living well
your life is too valuable to be guided by anything less
than what matters most
and I think like
that sort of affirmation of the goodness of life  
I think is something I think
I don't think
we knew until we were in the writing of the book
how much we felt like whenever there's sort of like
those opportunities in something like an epilogue
to like just re emphasize something
that was the thing that we felt like
needed to come back to
the last two sentences of the book
were my two favorite sentences
I truly so why do you open
back up you underline and circle
and it was live for what matters most
your life is worth it
it's the best message for people yeah yeah
I really struggled with this one
and I've gone back and forth
but I I'm gonna go with there's Apartment Book
it says more often
perhaps what snaps us out of it is a person
if we're lucky it's a friend or mentor
kindly letting us know
we're not living up to our own state
and I think there's people in our lives
who know us really well
and know they see the goodness in us
and and when you tell one of your friends like
come on
like you you can do better than that
you know it's from a place of love
and I think it's a responsibility of
us to help each other
because the people that care about you
and know you the best
are the people that are gonna
that you're gonna listen to in these
these moments
and it sounded like there was a specific time where
that happened to one of you in that book too
but   I just think like being a good friend sometime
it was you yeah
being a good friend sometimes means telling your friend
like hey yeah you can
there's something else here or yeah
this is unbecoming of you
I think that was her line that was my yeah
my one of my mentors lines
she's like that this is just this is unbecoming of you
and it was like I just love like
the combo of like calling me to account
but also like holding up like what would be becoming
like somehow I also become a lofty standard
right in her way of saying that right
all right it's a little bit of like yeah
so so she's actually honoring me
even in her like calling me out right
it's just I just
I just thought that was such powerful
you can do it in a beautiful way
that's knocked it versus
yeah I also love to eat other roots
wisdom or the branches that that little
those anecdotes there I thought they were
they were really good  
okay final segment is home renovations
where we talk about some of the changes that we
personally might Wanna make
after reading this book I don't know uh
I'm sure you've made a n ber of changes
not as you kind of gone through the
the program
so you can feel free to answer this question
however you like either a change that
when you're going through the class each year
or just in general what
what have you done
the big Mark that this work has left on my life
is the Sabbath practice that we have in my family  
in in my
our little we have to start our one daughter
so just the three of us our practice of uh
when it came from living
in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood
uh I'm a Christian theologian or Christian family
but boy there was just a night one
one night when I was working on uh something
you know
working on some piece of writing late into the night
and just heard these uh
girls downstairs who were just like
having a sl ber party and it's
cause it was Friday night and services were over
and all the
all the families that are part of this Orthodox
synagogue all
have to live within walking distance of one another
so girls
just had all their friends over for a sl ber party
and basically it was kind of like for a little while
some season of their life
seemed like it was basically a weekly thing
there was just like this like weekly like
like sl ber party Friday nights
and I just remember hearing them laughing and thinking
these girls like
know something about life that I don't
is I'm trying to like ring the last little bit of of
of of productivity out of my work week at
you know Friday at ten
thirty PM or eleven PM
or whatever ridiculous time it was uh
to try to still being be being productive and   anyway
yeah so we keep a 24 hour Sabbath
we do it in time with our neighborhood
so we run down Friday to sundown Saturday
still go to church on Sunday
on Sunday my
my daughter sometimes like this is just too much
too much rest but I  
I'm like I keep telling her what
actually a Christian ethicist told me many years ago
before I was ready to hear it
he said people ask me how I could keep a Sabbath
while I was doing
a PhD at Yale
and he said actually the Sabbath was my secret weapon
oh that was
it's like once a week like
I was getting recharged
and everybody else was burning the candle at both ends
  and so
I just decided I was able to work more effectively
and with a clear head  
when I was working and anyway
so I just like can't
it's put like boundaries on like what work
how central work can be in my own conception of myself
  in yeah
in our family system like
what we accomplished just like has their boundaries
it's like nope
like the the most important time is just
not about accomplishment at all
it's actually about being with one another
doing restorative recreative activities
my pickup
soccer game is just a really important part of my
of my weekly rhythm
playing music with my daughter on Saturday afternoons
really important part of my rhythm of my life and
and that's just all been made possible by first
first just like putting those
those stands in the ground and just saying
what if for happening for me
that's got theological weight
what if perhaps the god of the universe has like
asked me well
as Jesus says
the Sabbath is was made for the h an being
he also says the h an being was not made for
for the Sabbath right
but the for
I think we often missed the first half of that
in Christian circles that even Jesus says
like the Sabbath was a gift for h an beings anyway
so sorry I don't wanna get like
start getting a little mini sermon here
but I believe in like regular rest
and it has changed my life  
and was really part of this sort of charitable
listening across religious boundaries for me
and taking the big questions of life
are there parameters on the Sabbath for someone
oh yeah no
we have a weak sauce like Protestant Christian Sabbath
right so like I drive my car do soccer game
you know yes
we will sometimes go do a shopping trip on a Saturday
you know so we
you know we
some of the big things
I love that the Orthodox community
or Jewish community around us does
that I wish I could pick up is the like
no technology no driving thing  
no driving
the no technology we've gotten closer to on that  
at least at my school technology
we've tried that though occasionally
like we got to got to the end of one of those
and when we check our phones and it's like
like another family that were really close with like oh
we'd love to like
get together and do like board games today
we know it's your Sabbath right
and it's like oh
that is like that is exactly
the kind of thing
that we would have wanted to make room for
on our Sabbath
but our phones were on total do not disturb
and locked away in a box
so that we could have break from technology
so anyway like I said
we're it's weak sauce but we
I think nine out of 10 times
no technical day is gonna be a little bit better
I mean of course it's gonna be better
it's worth it I actually think the more restrictions
the better the Sabbath gets
he said
the person who has a relatively unrestrictive Sabbath
I have I have holy envy of my Orthodox Jewish neighbors
well Matthew you talked a little bit about it
but just the concept of resolutions
and especially where we are at from a calendar year
I'm the queen of thinking about the resolution
and I'm also the queen of the unsustainable resolution
and so this book was an opportunity to think about
what is a sustainable
you know change
what does it mean to have a sustainable change in
your life and you know
the concept of not eating to like tackle the world
so I enjoyed that
uh
I'm just gonna take Matthews because he loves of rest
I mean
someone was just telling me like you we're doing this
you're doing this you're doing this shit
like you gotta just just like give yourself some time
and I love the kind of dedicated time
I think I try to
finds time to just set it down and not think about it
and I'm good about no technology
but but even like
I'll set down my phone and then write like
10 pages about work in my notebook
Emily
told me an amazing idea that she thought of in church
I was like Emily
this is so we should do this on the podcast
no but the
you know the thesis for my first book
like I say like came to me and worship
I mean I'm a Bible scholar
put me as a little bit more integrated there
but like I remember something like
am I allowed to like sit down and write this down
but like I think I need to Natalie
there's no issues just all distraction
well I think that that wraps it up
it was this was such a fun discussion
and I think people really will love the book
especially reading it with their
their family members Life Worth Living
a guide to what matters most
Matthew thank you so much for your insights
where can people learn more about the program
or like if they wanted to just like
where should they go to check it out
life worth living dot Yale
dot edu would be the place to learn about the program
as a whole
and we have lots of resources there for sort of
and we think it was like sort of life
lifelong learning audience
  short
short little pieces of text that you can read
and questions that you can discuss and talk about
so they might even need some conversation props there
remember to subscribe to Family Book Club
share with your friends and family
leave us review until next time
keep reading take care of each other
thank you very much